#719: Walk & Talk with Greg McKeown — How to Find Your Purpose and Master Essentialism in 2024

Speaker 1

The way I've been thinking about it myself is just what is the number one highest priority for the year so normally I'm not even thinking about it necessarily like a goal because that Itself can be constraining.

Speaker 2

Could you say that wording one more time just want to make sure it sticks in.

Speaker 1

What is the number one highest priority for the year? That's not very different than where I worded it when I tasted you but it just means a little different than just okay well you've got all these existing goals what's the next book how Do you get the podcast to the next level like it's saying look bigger picture than that step back look at your whole life from the broadest possible

Speaker 1

Mean well it means like did you miss it did you miss her life were you there for it like a ghost of Christmas past type yeah yeah just like this review yes just like a Christmas Carol type Experience in micro version of it because it's done you know like there's of course there's a role to be played in her life you know forever but that phase is done and so like whatever I Feel in this moment that's it I the moment has gone and I'm just now reflecting on it and in that moment I did sort of come to this awakening of like no I I was I was there for it more than I wasn't We traveled together we did things together we've made all these memories I relationship connect and safe safely attached but I also learned in that moment like goodness this life Is so pathetic short and I learned also in that moment it's not divided between one X two X three X activities you know on an important scale it's like one X 10 X a thousand X and this was in A thousand X relationship and did I live it like that was reality that is reality but did I understand that in the moment I mean that's fairly dramatic way to answer your question but it's Like that's the perspective that I was reflecting on as I was thinking about okay therefore it's all of those perspectives are the true perspective that approximates reality how do I think about where to put my time and energy for twenty twenty four when there's so many good things you could be doing and so many things that will act upon me good things that will act Upon me that would consume the whole year easily you

Speaker 1

Let me answer this in this a conceptual way first of all right like why have all sorts of limitations that make focus challenging that make prioritization challenging that make relationships Challenging and all of us have our own mix of literally our DNA predisposes to various weaknesses and so the key for me seems to have been I have to build I mean the word gets overused I build A system that's equal to that challenge and so I have like a paper kind of I built designed myself and keep adapting all the time as soon as I learn oh that's kind of a weakness for me I build Something in and oh that adds a tendency where I make trade-offs that not pleased with later I build something in so that it acts on me and this really is the whole idea of effortless right Like effortless execution is I don't want to trust my weaknesses I want to build a system that means my weaknesses become something like irrelevant that's what I'm trying to build so One of those things like I mean literally physically my I take it with me everywhere my personalized plan I take everywhere literally everywhere I go I will have it and so in it I have the Key relationships of my life right and that for me is very simple that's my wife Anna as our four children they are the thousand exes in my life and then there is a select group of friends And then there's a much broader group of people that I also am building relationships and making sure I'm checking in on that really matter to me if I fail in those relationships then Probably everything's probably okay but but if I fail in my relationship with the thousand exes it's like no nothing's okay you're like with my wife Anna like let me use that as an example If I mean it's an old saying but it's like if things are bad in your marriage it doesn't matter how good anything else is nothing's good and if everything's good in your marriage like it Doesn't matter how bad everything else is everything is everything is good it's like this is so disproportionately important and so I don't think I can separate my answer to your question Without saying yeah it's actually the establishment building of this family that means there is a permanent system in place to help me remember what matters and who matters when do

Speaker 2

You revisit that in other words if you're carrying this with you everywhere and it seems like and again I'll just I'll add in my thoughts and then you can refine as we go but it seems like Unlike a lot of folks and this would include me who probably start

Speaker 1

People the way that my binder works like the first section is all about direction sort of let's say essential intent for my whole life like what really really matters it's as succinct As possible it's a few pages in total that's always the place to begin right because I want to come back and get centered in what I have come to learn is closest approximation to the purpose Of it all and I literally have to come back to it right like you've heard the metaphor before but you know the idea of a flight is off track 90% of the time like an airplane literally only Gets to where it's supposed to get to at the time it's supposed to get there because it readjusts constantly along the way and and I feel like that myself so like for example I don't think That I'm better at being an essentialist than anybody else I think if there's any advantage I've had in that journey it's that I just really admit that I'm a non-essentialist easily And so it's this idea like there's only two kinds of people in the world there are people who are lost and there are people who know they are lost it's like I know how easily it is bleeding Lost huh never heard that that's good I'm looking that definitely I will look properly at those few pages once a week right like every Sunday morning I will look through that I will read Through it all in the line schedules that's in your calendar yes Sunday morning that's right

Speaker 1

You've heard the metaphor before but you know the idea of a flight is off track 90% of the time like an airplane literally only gets to where it's supposed to get to at the time it's supposed To get there because it readjusts constantly along the way and and I feel like that myself so like for example I don't think that I'm better at being an essentialist than anybody else I think if there's any advantage I've had in that journey it's that I just really admit that I'm a non-essentialist easily and so it's this idea like there's only two kinds of people in The world there are people who are lost and there are people who know they are lost it's like I know how easily it is bleeding lost huh never heard that that's good I'm looking that definitely I will look properly at those few pages once a week right like every Sunday morning I will look through that I will read through it all in the line schedules that's in your calendar yes Sunday morning that's right and but but then at other times through the week if I feel that sensation I know people feel this you know that just sort of feels a bit crazy it's feeling just A bit frenetic and frantic like what I just texted Anna yesterday like man in the morning I'm like man I just feel so lost and I don't mean for the last six months I mean for the last half hour What is I don't feels a loss right now okay that's right that's the signal go back get centered take a moment what really is the intent what matters in your life okay now from that you know And then you start designing your day and I have some thoughts specifically about that but you know you're asking me the year process I guess you're asking my system so that's once a week Okay so for per day let's get to that so I've come to call this the one two three method I do not do it every day man I wish I was doing it every day but I do it more often than I don't do it and it's Simply this and it has to be written down for me in paper and pen like not in technology free of technology and I try now more often than not to have this power half an hour right like where I don't go to text an email or apps or my phone for the first 30 minutes and I do that I haven't been doing great at that recently but I still do that more often than I don't and so in that then Instead of doing that I'm in my planner and I'm literally writing okay what's the essential for today it's the one most essential today most important person most important action For that person number two is I write two things that are essential but urgent that's like you know it could be all sorts of things any you know whatever's got a deadline on it finished This writing assignment by this deadline it could be finished these financial things for you know retirement documentation stuff but I don't really want to get to but I know it's important And there's a deadline and then the third thing is three things that are maintenance items right so that's just I mean that's anything that if I don't do it it's not important today but If I don't do it it will make life a lot harder later it's like an effortless strategy and so that's the one two three method right one central two things that essential urgent three maintenance

Speaker 2

Items would you mind Greg giving me just some concrete examples so we can visualize what this looks like they don't have to be real I mean they could be hypothetical but just to give an Example of what a one two three might look like I'll just sort of talk through as I talked through yesterday so

Speaker 2

Would you mind Greg giving me just some concrete examples so we can visualize what this looks like they don't have to be real I mean they could be hypothetical but just to give an example

Speaker 1

Of what a one two three might look like I'll just sort of talk through as I talked through yesterday so yesterday I was in California in LA or an event as doing a keynote I had my oldest daughter Grace with me so the when I was texted and I like oh man I'm just kind of feeling a bit lost after I expressed that I was like okay get focused what is the essential for today the number one Thing oh it's Grace is here's my relationship with Grace I need to make sure that we connect today that we're not just with each other all day like I tried to travel with one of my children About 80 percent of the time for kinos and and so that's built into the system but you still have to be present and connected and so that was the priority the two things that are essential And urgent right like one of them the keynote right that's coming up and I don't really know how to phone it in on a keynote and I certainly fear phoning it in because it's like such an opportunity Missed the thing is coming like that that moment will arrive and you're going to be on stage

Speaker 1

Know how to phone it in on a keynote and I certainly fear phoning it in because it's like such an opportunity missed the thing is coming like that that moment will arrive and you're going To be on stage and it was for there's 500 people it's the non-trivial event and all the senior leaders of the organization and that was one of the key urgent tasks and then the next urgent Task was to do with some family members who are I won't get into the precise details of it but there's some health challenges involved so I've sort of taken it upon myself to say okay how Could I maybe kind of be a little bit of a coach which is not really the natural relationship I have with them but I'm risking it because I think it really matters and they seem to have responded Really positively and so I wanted to keep that going that would be the next thing and then of course maintenance items from there maintenance items literally included I was in Florida A couple of days before California so like literally I have to unpack everything put everything back in its place make sure that that's just in order so that you don't get behind on those Things I needed to respond to a key email about a contract that we've been in negotiation with over the last couple of months that would be an item of maintenance so when you're talking

Speaker 2

About the few pages that you would review on Sunday mornings what would be an example of something from those

Speaker 2

When you're talking about the few pages that you would review on Sunday mornings what would be an example of something from those few pages because I feel like this would be very helpful For me in the sense that I feel like I am pretty good at staying on task I'm pretty good at keeping the important things in mind and majoring in the major things however there are certainly Times when and weeks when I get a little lost and end up doing a lot of minor things and at the end of the week couldn't really point to what I've achieved what might be some examples from

Speaker 1

Those few pages if you don't mind sharing I have two pages at the beginning that I don't share anywhere but it's very carefully worded the highest expression of what I think the fullest Manifestation of my life can be it's not goals it's beyond that it's like who you can be what your most important relationships can look like and and it's sacred right like that's how I feel about that and so that's all the most important centering part of it because literally if you don't get clear on that nothing else matters in the system right if you execute superbly On things that end up not being what your life needed to be about then it doesn't matter efficiently doing what should not be done at all of course it's like it's a form of madness right Like it's you speedly going the wrong direction so from that I've identified

Speaker 1

So one of the most unbelievable things to me right one of the benefits of my church membership is that every person who wants one is a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can have a specific blessing that somebody gives you personally to you that nobody else ever gets to read and it's like we literally think about it not metaphorically like it's Like literal scripture for you and no two are the same I've only ever read mine and as the children's and my grandfather who died and grandmother who died because you can read your ancestors Once they've passed away and my grandfather gave it to me he was a patriarch every thousand people is makes up what's called a stake and every stake has a stake patriarch and the only thing They do is give these patriarchal blessings that the only blessings that are recorded and this is like whenever I think about what it is I'm just like my goodness how would you go about Thinking about life without this document because this is like precise and specific revelatory insight into who you are who you were before you came you are here what's possible what Relationships are going to matter what weaknesses to think about and it's like this is the centering document so a version of this when Stephen Covey's talking about hey we need to create A

Speaker 1

Yes and it's a different range I mean some people could be as short as a half a page but I remember meeting somebody that had one that was eight or nine pages and it really doesn't matter Because what it is is a portal what I just described what a portal all reading every book is potentially a portal right it takes you there at a time and place and that's what makes you know Fiction especially so powerful you suddenly experience this whole of the world but I really think that that's a way of thinking about scripture that isn't obvious to most people even People that sometimes are like reading scripture all the time it's not a words it just opens up the possibility so like I've read let's say I've read my page real blessing like I don't Know like say let's say it's 500 times or something it's probably more but two weeks ago when I read it suddenly a phrase a way that it's phrased suddenly opened up to me and I was like oh My goodness I bet that means that and it's like it doesn't matter the words are just the vehicle and it's as soon as I'm ready to like understand something more that suddenly the particular Word is open however that sounds I don't know how it was gross nobody else has to believe or think or see it the way I do but like it's a fact that is an experiential fact that that is what happens Over these years I got it when I was 13 so whatever I've had it for you know more than 30 years and even now I'm like oh that's what it means and this is what I need to do differently in my life Oh that's where my weakness lies and it's how I need to improve and and so this is a very stentering tool to guide all of life and it kind of thing that I think yeah that's difference between That and trying

Speaker 1

In some sense regurgent taking the same set of potentially terrestrial ideas it's like this document to me helps it's like better than me it's better than my book I'm trying to figure Out a higher set of thinking that's one me and you know it's self-transcendent rather than self-actualization it's not me setting a goal for me and I'm going to achieve it it's oh man I'm going in the wrong direction this is what I'm supposed to do and the whole idea for example of the biblical term repent it was translated from a Greek word that doesn't really mean What people think of when they hear the word repent what it means it comes from that's an oil it means be life yourself life God everything through new eyes and it's that idea of new eyes And new breath and seeing that isn't that newness of sight that is what the goal is right and so the repentance isn't about shame it's about let go of the old thinking so that there's something New and better and it's higher we've talked about before the idea of light and it's lighter and lighter and lighter to you know eventually you some perfect day in the future but it's like More light produces more light and as long as we're following that light it gives us more and more and bringing this now back to you for a second it's like I see you doing this in your life I

Speaker 2

To the blessing in the two pages if you don't mind because I'm really grateful that you brought this up and it resonates very deeply for me because I actually use different types of poetry For this but the pages change which has some upside I would imagine but also some downsides some downsides but if you're looking at say as I is I might the poetry of Hafez or other they're Generally mystics they don't need to be from the Islamic traditions they could be from any tradition but they resonate a lot with my lived and felt experience for multitude of reasons So I will flip to a random page and that is the page right that is the page that I use as the mirror so to speak or the lens through which I look at my life or whatever I'm contemplating the goals The troubles whatever it might be and it's incredibly helpful as a way to grease the skids to get unstuck right because if you're in a pattern of thinking that has not solved whatever Puzzle you're trying to solve then oftentimes more thinking of the same kind is not going to do a hell of a lot so having this type of jolt of novelty slash unexpected in my case words is Very helpful but I do see the benefit of something more comprehensive and more consistent so maybe the life mission is one approach I will say and this isn't something I've talked about That I've been single as you may or may not know for the last year plus maybe a year and three months or something like that and I wrote down what I

Speaker 1

A wrong question like it's right wrong right and so you can get you know people can spend years and years on a question like that so let's say a better question is maybe not surprising it's Like how can I be the right person who do I need to be and then that means that some point you attract people like that to you and so the your probability of meeting somebody that actually Is the right person for you increases but that seems like what's happened to you like you say almost without design but it's like oh actually that list looks a lot like what I need to be And how I need to orient myself in the world so what the patriarchal blessing is to me is the highest possible ideal that I can have and so I think that that's the question for everybody It's like given all the tools we have all the insights we've ever heard all the best and highest wisdom that we have come across thus far what's that highest ideal and to focus on it and To have mechanisms where you come back to that more often than not more days than you don't so that that becomes the guiding force of your life and and so I think that there probably is some Process right now where you say let's take the best the poetry or the best list and I'm going to

Speaker 1

Highest truth I've ever come across even if it's really inconvenient for me what's the closest thing I cannot take place as to the purpose of my life and I do think that really without Doing that when we don't do that I don't know man I just don't even know what I'm doing when I don't do that it's like I can respond to a lot of emails I can travel a lot I can I mean when I look Back to 2023 I think and I did a lot of things and I just need to be really grateful for all those things but sometimes I'm like did you do what really rests at the most in the whole year did

Speaker 2

You and I don't want that to be true for 2024 what comes to mind for me also actually I haven't thought about this in a while but it was from a conversation I had on the podcast with General Stanley McChrystal and I'm going to paraphrase here but said something along the lines and I've heard this elsewhere since but the purpose of life is to find the purpose of life something Along those lines and the reason that that came to mind is I would imagine I'm just digitalizing myself here that if you have something like the patriarchal blessing or four or five pieces Of poetry so Wild Geese by Mary Oliver would probably be in in my shortlist as an example if you have a handful of things that you have decided even for

Speaker 2

You're lost in the woods do you have a compass or not like even if you haven't figured out how to get to where you're going like do you have a compass or not and if you have a compass you're

Speaker 1

Going to feel a hell of a lot better even if you don't use this well so like literally I guess this is actually true that that if you there's like a piece of research about this that people Were given the task to walk in a straight line and they they found that if they were in a wilderness where there was no point that they could look to they literally walked in circles they Didn't know they were doing that and so the only way to actually go forward is to pick something on the horizon there's the mountain there's a thing I'm going to that and then you could Walk in a straight line and so that's no strange because that means that there's nothing inside of us that knows exactly where to go physically I mean that's true for me when I'm driving Out there and that's for absolutely sure so I think that it's beyond a goal it's what's the direction what's it all about I'm going to fix on that for a while and then I'm going to strive To live that we're

Speaker 1

Word that comes to mind I'm worried it might sound I don't know almost trivial because it's like oh yeah we will we know that word but it's like it's truth it's like willingness to speak The truth meaning not that they or any of us have some monopoly on the truth obviously we don't obviously truth is beyond us and our expression needs to be as close to what we understand The truth to be as possible otherwise it can't be corrected we can't engage in proper communication with other people I have a few thoughts about this one I think that telling the truth Is like whatever the consequence is for telling the truth in the immediate moment it is the path to your best possible future that's speaking the truth and listening to other people Like as soon as you start speaking the truth you start having truthful conversations with people and if you can do that in what I would describe as the spirit of truth which is different Than just saying what you think is true I think this and then it's like you you're trying to say the truth but in a spirit of truth it's like am I doing this in the right spirit am I just doing

Speaker 2

This to win the conversation it's like there's a I'm doing it could you I understand winning the conversation as a description but yeah what would the antinum of that be in other words

Speaker 1

Saying it in the spirit of truth what does that look like or feel like it means that the intent of the conversation is to discover together what is really true not to make your point to win And so on right like so the intent of the conversation changes and so let's describe the absolute ideal of this the ideal of this is I am trying to speak the truth by the spirit of truth that Is that is

Speaker 1

Like it means that the intent of the conversation is to discover together what is really true not to make your point to win and so on right like so the intent of the conversation changes And so let's describe the absolute ideal of this the ideal of this is I am trying to speak the truth by the spirit of truth that is that is as soon as I've spoken it I'm open to being wrong and I'm open to not just being wrong but I'm open to learning because like then you say something back to me and you go well this is well this is how I see this and hopefully me being true makes It easier for the person I'm talking to to be truthful and so then they share something and I go oh my goodness I have not thought about that way oh that makes me think of this and and so it's You are trying to say what you think is true but now let's see if we can expand the parameters of truth that we together can have previously like there's more truth that's going to come Out in this conversation I think that's what the spirit of truth looks like then the ideal of course is that when the other person speaks now I want to make that safe so they can speak the Truth to me whatever that is even if I don't really you don't want to hear it so I now have to listen with the spirit of truth and so that comes the symbiotic communication and I would say That most people have experienced it occasionally rarely but they have experienced it because when you get into this kind of communication time sort of evaporates and we're not worried So much about ourselves anymore how we're coming across who are not judging them and so when it's just you know it's back to porkel

Speaker 1

Evaporates and we're not worried so much about ourselves anymore how we're coming across who are not judging them and so when it's just you know it's back to porkel communicate it's Like and I think what I'm describing now it's taking me a long time to understand this to articulate this but I think this is the one true way of communication was Anna Karenna you know Opened the brilliant line all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way and happy families are happy in one way there's like a single way of doing it right and a thousand ways of doing It wrong and I think that's communication too and I didn't know that until fairly recently but I think that's right that every other form when we're trying to speak to impress or when We're trying to weasel out of responsibility right like I've done that in my own family oh yeah well no I'm meant to do it this way or I tried that way you know defensive this isn't communication I don't know what it is I don't have a word for it but it's it's anti-communication I think speaking with truth the spirit of truth listening and the spirit of truth that magic happens Then in that you make each other better you edify each other you understand each other you can sort of rejoice in it I mean I have to assume that you have had moments like long many moments Of in podcast conversations when they're at their best it's like it's beyond any agenda and so the people that I'm thinking of in my mind have the courage to

Speaker 2

So anything else that comes to mind if you had to add something else to the answer of the question of what you see in some of the secular examples to seem to really be able to travel the road Less traveled in the way that we've been discussing it anything else come to mind it doesn't have to be specific to any type of patriarchal blessing like document or compass per se but But just someone who is in general good at operating kind of top down if that makes sense as opposed to like here are the thousand things that I could do in a reactive sense and then let me

Speaker 1

Try to pick a handful of those as my priorities people are very good at operating kind of top down it's hard way to get out of the thread that I'm on about this because because what I'm learning Is that I mean we've talked already about this idea of sort of the highest aspiration you're looking towards something bigger than you self transcending Maslow's hierarchy of needs Right is wrong it's wrong like Maslow said it was wrong and nobody updated the documentation oh I can't wait this is this is new to me all right yeah so he so before he died before Maslow Died he wrote a final book in which he updated his model and just no one I don't know why I don't know what was going on precisely but it just got ignored and some reason that model just is Is in every single psychology book that's ever been written and it's everywhere everywhere the highest need is self-actualization and he changed that before he died to

Speaker 1

No they really not they really are different in kind self-actualization is like what I was briefly describing before culture and maybe that's not a precise terminology but it named Something for me of of like yes just about you Greg McEwen looking like he wants to look really like he wants to feel getting what he likes to get you know it's just more for me yeah I mean It's an individual achievement yes related to achievement ethic and the data shows that achievement ethic as a value has increased in society over the last few decades significantly More than any of the other let's say the other virtues and of course I think achievement is a virtue the desire to achieve but it's of course just one of many and so self transcendence is Kind of what we're talking about and it certainly leads me down this path of yes it is about the relationships it really really is about that because if you have a model of self-actualization And then you try to be in a relationship well it's not going to work

Speaker 2

Of one thing for people who may not be familiar with the term self transcendence if you could just define that at some point could be brief just people have an idea and self-actualization

Speaker 1

I think people probably can infer but self-transcendence okay so here's what I'm going to do I'm going to go for the attachment step and I'll bring it back to self-transcendence okay One could ask a question like you know what is a relationship what is love what makes a healthy strong resilient successful relationship over decades right like what does what does That look like and it's a really non-trivial question especially when one considers what for something like 50 years we have been actually taught and the data now is increasingly showing That that is wrong so that really matters but like what we've been taught first of all like go back with me move how people thought about raising children in like you know let's say 1910 1920 like this in England right the center of the world probably still in terms of economic power and political power and so on and like what with the perspective of that relationship And there's John Balbitt he's in an upper-class home in a gentleman's home he's allowed to come and eat

Speaker 1

Like I don't remember the name precisely but it's like a two-year-old goes to hospital and maybe a three-year-old goes to hospital it's something like this and he videos the experience Of this child and the separation anxiety that they experience and how terrifying it is for them to suddenly be in this hospital unwell you know don't know anybody and so on and they create This video that video was almost banned he was almost kicked out of the whatever the agency was that was managing psychological institutions in the UK you almost got kicked out of it For having this theory that eventually he caused the theory of attachment but over time like all the thousands that he's have been done since on his work and over time his insights have Been really strongly hoarded and it's grown and and so now we have attachment theory what that means is that especially in years one to three whenever level of attachment we have with Our mother with our father it finds us in really significant ways for the rest of our lives and if we were insecurely attached then it also makes it extremely hard for us to have deep and Proper relationships with people all through our lives it's like massively influenced by those early years now that's phase one but phase two he died before he ever got to see this but Another set of researchers picked up the baton and started looking into whether the attachment

Speaker 1

By those early years now that's phase one but phase two he died before he ever got to see this but another set of researchers picked up the baton and started looking into whether the attachment Theory that that everyone had thought applied only to sort of these infants could also be true with adult relationships and the answer to that question is a resounding yes and that every Argument every fight that adults have with each other and in intimate relationships especially let's say every fight is about the same blasted thing and what it's about is described By a different professor as like a primal cry or you know a primal scream or something I can't remember the term now but what that primal desire is do you really see me do you really know Me do you really are you really going to be there for me if I'm desperate enough and that's what it's always about that's the heart that's every other argument about the same thing would You really see me can I be securely attached to you are you securely attached to me and so okay now contrast that with self-actualization there's a whole argument of self-actualization If you think self-actualization is the highest need in life and then you get into

Speaker 1

Same blasted thing and what it's about is described by a different professor as like a primal cry or you know a primal scream or something I can't remember the term now but what that primal Desire is do you really see me do you really know me do you really are you really going to be there for me if I'm desperate enough and that's what it's always about that's the heart that's Every other argument about the same thing would you really see me can I be securely attached to you are you securely attached to me and so okay now contrast that with self-actualization There's a whole argument of self-actualization if you think self-actualization is the highest need in life and then you get into a relationship you start creating this kind of language In the psychological industry you start saying if you need the other person too much you're co-dependent you create language around it you say well that's just in meshment you're struggling With what you need is to be independently happy independently secure independently invulnerable independently strong and then together then you're going to create this great dynamic Relationship I can think of people I don't really want to say it even though everybody knows these people are global icons we're in a relationship that looks about its toxic as a relationship Can possibly look in which they describe that they're in they say we're

Speaker 1

If you need the other person too much you're co-dependent you create language around it you say well that's just in meshment you're struggling with what you need is to be independently Happy independently secure independently invulnerable independently strong and then together then you're going to create this great dynamic relationship I can think of people I don't really want to say it even though everybody knows these people are global icons we're in a relationship that looks about its toxic as a relationship can possibly look in which They describe that they're in they say we're in this bad marriage we're in this terrible but we're going to stick it out because that's what love is it's like you go make yourself happy And you go make yourself happy and then we'll be happy together it's a global manifestation I feel so bad for the couple and all the people involved by it but it's like this manifestation Of a bad paradigm that we have been taught what you want is exactly the opposite of that it's like no we need effective dependence where we actually feel deeply connected deeply seen Emotionally safe attached that's what we're really going for and so bringing this now back to the question of self transcendence. Health transcendence means multiple things so I don't want to oversimplify it it certainly means giving yourself

Speaker 1

Health transcendence means multiple things so I don't want to oversimplify it it certainly means giving yourself to something bigger than yourself it certainly means that transcending Yourself trying to live for something beyond us and it includes definitely includes in his definition being able to be unified with other people in deep relationships and so that's Not the whole sense that he meant by that term but it's certainly included in it and that is to say you can't have self transcendence if you haven't learned how to like they go together You you have to be quite developed in order to be able to deeply connect with others you have to be very vulnerable because my goodness you have to cry out as it as it were to say I feel so unsafe Right now in this conversation I have to speak truth about this and I'd rather just I'd rather say oh you just don't like me or you just are like this are you instead of the vulnerability The truth of this is how I feel this is what's

Speaker 2

So and then the the question that I want to ask is thinking about say attachment and self transcendence and relationships and so on what order do we put these in for people who are listening Or for myself right although I think I've actually made tremendous progress on most of these fronts in the last handful of years but how would you suggest someone approach this in other Words if they're singing all right well self transcendence is the top of the ladder by dr mass low and is in his final writings I'm up for that that makes sense to me and they want healthy Interdependent relationships and they recognize that the sort of Gordon get go slash go go go achiever culture in the u.s. While it produces a lot of GDP and other things doesn't always actually very rarely produces stable well-being in most people and the question then comes up which is in what order do I tackle these things should I read a book on attachment theory and do that first and then maybe look at Maslow's stuff and then look at something else from a brass tax perspective if somebody's Like yeah you know what you're right if I look at myself truthfully you know honestly I have deficits in these areas and I want to try to make the leap like I want to I want to work on these Things how would you suggest someone do that maybe you can give me your two cents there is a book let me look at the cover really quickly yeah I think it's just called attached yeah the new Science of adult attachment etc etc which has I guess two magnets in the form of a heart on the cover a pretty good cover I'll give it credit the new science of adult attachment how it can Help you find and keep loved by a mere Levine MD and Rachel SF Heller MA 19,437 reviews 4.7 star average I have not read it so I can't speak to this but I know a number of friends have read this And found it helpful but I'm speculating here so what would you

Speaker 1

And he says he starts off basically saying look this is I've wrestled with whether I should share publicly something that's so private it's a bit tacky to do that but still really glad That he did it okay so I just pulled it up I'm just gonna read a few little bits from it he said I lost my wife to cancer last month her daughter lost her mother I'm hesitated sharing any of This but there is something I want to record fair warning this is mostly about love I'm devastated a hall has opened where I thought my identity lived a daughter is doing the same in her Toddler way asking questions slowly understanding what's happened grieving in stages we had a delightful life together full of intense highs and lows but two elements that were vastly More important towards than any of this are extraordinary little daughter and the quality of the time we all spent together Aubrey and I fell in love early and fast but we fell more in Love during the time she was convalescing than I thought was possible facing death every day allowed us to set aside the silly things and focus on what matters the privilege of knowing And loving her so deeply outpaces every other experience I've had is the one thing that matters okay I've considered whether to share any of this obviously it's tacky to make personal Tragedy into a public spectacle

Speaker 1

Highs and lows but two elements that were vastly more important towards than any of this are extraordinary little daughter and the quality of the time we all spent together Aubrey and I fell in love early and fast but we fell more in love during the time she was convalescing than I thought was possible facing death every day allowed us to set aside the silly things and Focus on what matters the privilege of knowing and loving her so deeply outpaces every other experience I've had is the one thing that matters okay I've considered whether to share Any of this obviously it's tacky to make personal tragedy into a public spectacle but I wanted to capture something that I've learned okay I'm skipping here she says that he says this We had an epic love affair and yet we reached a depth of intimacy while Aubrey was on her deathbed that we'd never had access to before that depth of love wasn't available to us any earlier Whatever reason but it is available I want to make it available to everyone by reminding you it exists Aubrey shifted into a deeper love about six weeks before she died during her time In the hospital her one regret was that she hadn't spent more time deepening relationships with the people she cared about she said the only thing that matters at all is the quality of The relationships with the people we love focus on that I know it sounds try to tweet

Speaker 1

About she said the only thing that matters at all is the quality of the relationships with the people we love focus on that I know it sounds try to tweet but I can guarantee you with absolute Certainty that when you're dying and you will die these are the only things you will care about Aubrey realized this deeply in the most fundamental way because she was running out of Time so she put it into action it was mostly instinct at first but by the end her deeper way of loving had become very conscious and intentional her change was palpable she softened and Opened she began to be with those around her in a kind of total surrender we all felt that she was experiencing us without a filter somehow we were seen and loved it was beautiful it was Overpowering it was humbling beyond measure as she did all this those around her began to learn how to do it as well I learned being loved that completely as overwhelming in the best way It's probably all any of us ever crave I've tried to carry that love forward ever since loving that deeply is a practice it's like anything sometimes it's easy sometimes it's very hard But it's always worthwhile the key to this kind of love is necessarily different for everyone I only know one way complete surrender to the inevitable death of yourself and those you Love I'm not writing this to proselytize any given path I simply want to say out loud that it is possible to

Speaker 2

Incredible I'm just sitting with that for a minute what a gift to write that down for people also to absorb well to read yeah so I reached out to him and so he's already responded we just

Speaker 1

Got to schedule a time and you know try and get you know more of that story and the details of it because I think that deserves to be told you know like when I read that that sort of is reinforcing And crystallizing of all these other themes I've been describing it's like yeah he just he said it and he said it out of his suffering produced that level of clarity and it's like look If I don't understand that and then I make my goal list if I don't understand that and then I just go to email if I don't understand that and I just react and just do what I think of the people Think is cool or good oh they think I mean I shouldn't use this exam I don't know why you can do it for example I love skiing and so do you but like oh I if I'm just going skiing because other People think it's cool to go skiing if I'm traveling

Speaker 2

That question I've done that and part of the reason I have no social apps on my phone and that's been largely true for two or three years now if you don't have as you mentioned like if you Don't have these sort of foundational directional documents or tools given the tools at hand given the information deluge that is only going to accelerate exponentially with AI and Disinformation and so on that is going to this year 2024 it is going to at least 10 acts probably a hundred acts and it is going to multiply so unbelievably if you do not have these guardrails And these sort of operating principles in place you are going to lose right what you'll lose is personal but like you are going to lose whatever one that could apply in a lot of different Domains but the technology has you completely diagrammed and defeated before you ever step into these domains it's like billions upon billions of dollars of data science and research And so on that has gone into ensuring that your willpower will not be sufficient particularly if it doesn't have a trained fixed point in the distance to come back to the being lost in The wilderness analogy as my job interview some

Speaker 2

You don't realize you're in a game you've already lost the game but let me ask you when you're talking about the priority your priority top priority the one priority and I'm going to make Mistakes with the wording but it was along the lines of fostering and cultivating secure attachment with your wife if I remember correctly for a lot of people who may be listening certainly For me also when I think about that I'm like yes yes and yes and also typically if I had a primary goal let's just say I'll pull out something that's less lower to the ground in a sense that Makes it easier to use as an example write a screenplay let's say I want to write a screenplay this year that's one of my top goals okay great then I can work backwards from that and say okay What are the sort of antecedents how long do those take who do I need to interact with how should I block those out in the calendar and then I can execute something resembling a blueprint Right or a gantt chart or something like that with your top priority how do you ensure that you're taking meaningful action related to that top priority I know exactly what you're saying

Speaker 1

I mean this is the advantage of a concrete goal is that a concrete goal almost immediately presents the plan or elements of a plan that will immediately start to arrive okay well if we're Doing this we would have to do A, B, and C and so on and that's one of the reasons goals are so powerful and so scary too because if you get your mind set on the wrong goal then you'll be consumed With it and maybe going in the wrong direction okay so how do you do it if the goal is a relationship it's really different isn't it because it's not about achieving checkpoints and the Very nature of the relationship is that it's symbiotic but

Speaker 1

I'll give you the words in mind and it may be I maybe by the end of the year I'll have better more precise ways of describing these things but yes I think it's really safe not just sort of safe Really safe I'm safe to say what I really think it's safe enough to hear what you really think and not take the money so that there's just base somewhere in the world to be able to express All of that that we don't express in any other situation it's a little bit like this idea that you want your like remember somebody as I call just describing this they said if your children Are acting out at home but not at school like they're doing well at school but not at home you know the teachers are going oh they're so great here and and you go geez they're not so great With us it's actually just exactly what you want because they're safe to be able to act out at home so that people have to be everywhere else didn't see that coming okay yeah that makes Sense and so it's a similar way I think in a safety attached relationship is like you can act out so a bit because you need somewhere to be able to do that you can say all your fears you can Say all the nonsense so I think that's sort of a test of it if you want to build beyond there like I think it's and this is this is I would say the biggest test for me is can I create enough time Every day for that so that it's not just a bit here and a bit there you know like normally

Speaker 2

At home so that people have to be everywhere else didn't see that coming okay yeah that makes sense and so it's a similar way I think in a safety attached relationship is like you can act

Speaker 1

Out so a bit because you need somewhere to be able to do that you can say all your fears you can say all the nonsense so I think that's sort of a test of it if you want to build beyond there like I think it's and this is this is I would say the biggest test for me is can I create enough time every day for that so that it's not just a bit here and a bit there you know like normally happens In fact because just in the same way is if you leave exercise and you leave your relationships it's just like well we'll just let that happen however it does then you end up with bad relationships And ill health and that's what normally happens I mean that's like when I ask people what's essential that they're under investing and those are like basically the two most frequent Answers is not exercising not eating well in my relationships are you know my most important relationships are struggling in some way so it's how do I create like let's say one to two Hours per day not watching TV not together not doing things not even just talking about hey what happened today what's going on and updates and there's loads of that but enough time uninterrupted Time so you actually

Speaker 1

It's quantity and quality it really is actually making a sacrifice making the trade-off so examples yes yes the way you're saying the Seth God example I think is included okay so so with My children and within it when I travel I will take somebody with me and so that just provides a lot of potential for you know ripping it a lot of surface area yeah exactly and then and then Suddenly kind of spontaneous I mean conversations are like that they're so random and then and then but there's method in the madness too that suddenly something more sensitive comes Up and now you're talking about that real subject and so I think it is there is a structural piece too if I'm for me with Anna it's okay there's the date night actually structurally insisting It happens once or even maybe you get to twice a week and you you're sort of forcing that space to exist a possible conversation and it can be all sorts of things but it's a structural piece And I think that that's non-trivial space never happens in our life no never you know if I go back into like 1820 kind of time frame like so pre-industrial revolution and I'm not trying To romanticize it I think that must have been so hard to live then I cannot even imagine surviving was so so so hard you mean you don't want your five-year-old being a chimney sweep yeah I mean I mean I mean honestly go right in but what they did have an advantage over us is that the sun went down and there wasn't electricity

Speaker 1

It right there is how do you stack the decks in your favor because that currently stacked against you and I'm not making a plug I'm just expressing the reason I did it right the reason I Wrote effortless after essentialism was I'd be like you have to build a system that makes it the default that you'll do the essentials and not do the non-essentials and I already said That an essentialism actually but it was like it didn't get people didn't hear it they just heard oh yeah you got to do the essential there's non-essentials and and then I hear the feedback Over years and years well I've oh hard to do and it's like it's like yeah you aren't doing it because you figured out what's essential you figured out what's non-essential but then you Didn't maybe realize the system is so built to make the non-essential

Speaker 2

For sure man well Greg this has been so much fun it's nice to hear your voice and where can people find you if we end up publishing this and we'll talk about it you know there is a single thing

Speaker 1

It took me it took us way longer than I thought it was going to take to build this it's totally free it's like literally takes people 10 seconds to sign up for it is where to start with essentialism And with effortless and it's you go to gregmecun.com it's right there on the home page 30 day email program you get a whole workbook that goes with it completely free easy 10 seconds to

Speaker 2

Sign up and it answers that question where do you stop how do you how do you spell your name dear sir oh yeah that's fair enough